3D: A Player's Perspective

[3DWarrior]

I'm going to piggy back on this thread rather than create a new one.

Anyone who participated in the testing of the dungeon this last weekend and took notes, please do send them to me within the next week.

-Specific issues/ooc bugs
-thoughts/feelings on difficulty
-loot
-anything else that struck you

[3DWarrior]

Giving this another bump considering the recent, IC introduction to a particular dungeon.

Anyone that participated in the midnight madness dungeon romp and feels inclined to help me, personally, please do the following.

Send me a pm. I'm not looking for the stuff you liked. I'm looking for the bad. This includes, but is not limited to:
-OOC bugs. Spelling mistakes, buggy AI, bad transitions(can't see the blue).
-IC contradictions. An extreme example would be a Celestial Paladin guarding the treasure trove and helping all the hooligans with their evil plots; this makes no IC sense.
-OOC fun spoilers. Something that just reached out, slapped you in the face and said, "No, no fun for you as a player!"

I'll wait approximately a week, then collect what input I have and see about making changes. It can be a two line bit, or it can be multiple paragraphs; anything is appreciated.

[AdmVenge]

Ooh, here is a fun old thread. I was just thinking about this while stumbling through a dugeon today.

Problem with dungeon design is not how many goodies and tricks and baddies you can put into it; but how many players you are going to entertain. The more detailed and rewarding your dungeon, the more people will come. However, if your dungeon is the only place to find "good" loot or "easy" kills, you will find people soloing it, which will defeat the purpose if you are making it a grand epic adventure.

To make one dungeon stand out, you really need a sliding scale of dungeons already built. As the population and mood of the server fluctuates, you will ideally want a variety of dungeons. Small, quick adventures for people who dont have much time, relatively easy dungeons (with comparative rewards) for people looking for something to do when no one else is on, or trying to grind thier way past the first few levels. With a good balance of areas, no one will camp your epic dungeons that are designed for parties (and people wont attempt to solo your epic dungeon and whine when it kills them).

Another problem is keeping track of all those dungeons. Think of all the dungeons on Arkaz, or other CoPaP worlds that are forgotten. Quests that fall by the wayside because the builders and old players are no longer around to show the new players where they are. A central, NPC run sort of "Adventuring Guild" could keep track of quests and dungeon locations, and even give an xp reward to characters that bring them news of new quests or dungeons. It also helps new players find quests ICly, and maybe show old players some quests they never heard of before or how to find new dungeons to explore.

I dont solo dungeons, I prefer going with a group. So, my take on loot and NPCs will be different than a crafter who usually adventures alone. In general, healing kits are the most preferred, since clerics are not always available for an adventure. Currently, there seem to be alot of mage types around, so it does not seem to hard to get magical backup. I have not seen alot of beefy tank types, so I can understand the frustration of fighting creatures that use healing.

Oh, I am not a fan of needing one class to get all the rewards. Nightfang requires a Rogue to get 80% of the treasure. I would prefer it if some of the chests were instead opened only with a Strength check (rusted lock), some only opened with an Intelligence check (a magic puzzle lock) or something similar. It is not easy to find a fully balanced party for adventuring now adays. I would far prefer it if the dungeon was designed to give a little extra reward for having a balanced party, rather than demanding one to complete it.

[3DWarrior]

With the servers down, it's time to take a step back and gague where we are in terms of dungeons. Answer the following questions to the best of your ability; the questions are just guidelines, so if you have other thoughts, feel free to share.

These questions are meant to help assess the currently standing dungeons. I'm looking to get thoughts on where we're lacking stuff, where we have too much stuff, and what should be a focus for future dungeons.

I have one final request before we begin-be nice. Builders work really, really hard, and while some stuff they(we) crank out may irritate you to no end, civility is key to getting a respectable response.

1) A dungeon for every level. Are there too many epic crawls? Are there too few lowbie areas? Are there enough short areas for the quick, casual adventure?

2) Proximity to the hot spots. Does it feel like you have to travel a looooong way to reach a dungeon? Do you feel like there are unrealistically dangerous concentrations of enemies far too close to 'civilized' areas? If so, what areas?

3) Loot. Do you feel loot is unbalanced in some areas compared to others? Do you feel like the dangers of some areas far override any reward you might receive for going through? Do you avoid some areas due to the lack or excessive surplus of loot?

4) Unfair abilities and tactics. Anything out there grinding your gears? Do you dread facing that NPC that throws around knockdown? Do you hate that Abjurationist that dispells every spell you, your father and grandfather have ever cast? Do you dread npcs with damage reduction via items and spells? Do you dislike the npcs with +1,2,3 weapons?

5) Layout. Do you avoid or prefer specific dungeons due to their layout? Length, spread, environment? Do you keep away from the ones that don't have portals at the end for a quick jump out?

Have at it, keeping in mind this is an opportunity to actively change what dungeons are currently on Arkaz.

[Ronan]

1) I like the dungeons on Arkaz. I wish there were a couple more for true lowbies, because the dire rats are not lowbie friendly. Some minor collector dungeons that give starting loot with the xp (healing kits, potions of lesser restoration, and other expendables) for the true lowbies would be really lowbie friendly! The bee quest is great.

2) Grubbins was a great idea and helps to centralize a lot of dungeons

3) My arkaz characters are pretty self sufficient and use up far less resources then other characters, so I will not comment too far, except to say...
I can make a little too much off those orc talismans. *cough* Maybe just have different ones and one spell on each.

4) The Keivick elf mages (and pale masters) all have that bigby spell that knocks people to the ground and it's annoying...which is why I usually stab them first.

I get tired of being knocked down all the time in areas where KD is on 5-7 creatures that all spawn in the same area (only area I can think of right now is the orcs with the scythes), but that's my own fault for not having ranks in discipline. If there was some way to ensure the enemies didn't think it was a good idea to keep us on the ground for 20 rounds straight, I would be very happy.

I hate shadowdancers because they seem to use HIPs in a way that means that you can't actually attack them half the time, but I barely notice their attacks anymore...so oh well.

5) Layout... I like Keivick for the fact that I don't have to hit every area, I can go to the parts I have time for and can back out easily if it's too hard. I'm sure I would like ravensclaw for the same reasons.... if I went there.

[Tremayne7]

On the whole I really like the dungeons we currently have. However, I think we do need some more.

1) More Lowbie dungeons. The bees are great in that anyone can go there and fight them. The rats are really to be honest, ok, but the one big rat at the end is too powerful for a true lowbie to fight by themselves. And by the time you can fight him by yourself, you're way too powerful to gain any benefit from him. He needs to be a bit more "realistic" for a Lowbie dungeon. The goblins (in the upper caves) are kind of fun and the spiders are fun too with groups. Also I think we could do with a good mid range dungeon for those who are too powerful to do bees, but not quite up to doing spiders level 5 and beyond.

2) I think most dungeons are fine where they are located.

3) The problem with loot anywhere is the lack of places to sell it. I've been on and tried to sell what I have and can't because the merchants haven't enough gold.

4) I think there are some spells that a lot of players do not use because it's kind of metagamy, but the NPC's use them and it's really unfair.

5) I love Keivick and the spider caves. You can go on short runs or take long tours. I've only been in the Raven'sclaw dungeon once and really didn't get a feel for the place.

[Adament]

1) A dungeon for every level. Are there too many epic crawls? Are there too few lowbie areas? Are there enough short areas for the quick, casual adventure?

I like dungeons that get progressively more difficult so that you can go to the dungeon at different levels and still find something challenging, starting at level 1 all the way up to level 40 and you are fighting a god if possible. With this sort of dungeon you either need a linear dungeon with escapes routs or different areas the can be accessed.

2) Proximity to the hot spots. Does it feel like you have to travel a looooong way to reach a dungeon? Do you feel like there are unrealistically dangerous concentrations of enemies far too close to 'civilized' areas? If so, what areas?

None of the dungeons seem to far to be a deterrent.

3) Loot. Do you feel loot is unbalanced in some areas compared to others? Do you feel like the dangers of some areas far override any reward you might receive for going through? Do you avoid some areas due to the lack or excessive surplus of loot?

Loot is reasonable and useful. Nice amount of consumables at some dungeons and gold/sellable at others.

4) Unfair abilities and tactics. Anything out there grinding your gears? Do you dread facing that NPC that throws around knockdown? Do you hate that Abjurationist that dispells every spell you, your father and grandfather have ever cast? Do you dread npcs with damage reduction via items and spells? Do you dislike the npcs with +1,2,3 weapons?

I like that fact that some dungeons have a wide variety of npc while others seem to have concentrations of only one or two types. It's nice sometimes to not have to worry about casters nailing you but with that said a dm usuallly shows up and nails you anyway to keep you on your toes.

5) Layout. Do you avoid or prefer specific dungeons due to their layout? Length, spread, environment? Do you keep away from the ones that don't have portals at the end for a quick jump out?

I don't really like long, long, long dungeons with lots of redundant spawns. It's very nice when you have options to skip over parts both in and out or perhaps have different options to go from point A to point B where one rout may be easier but longer and another may be more dangerous but shorter, a sort of trade off perhaps. I do avoid traps as much as possible but I'm fine with staying away from those dungeons until I have a good rogue with me. It makes those more special when I do get to go. Same thing with really magic heavy dungeons, I just wait for cleric or mage to keep me buffed.

[VCaparzo]

1) A dungeon for every level. Are there too many epic crawls? Are there too few lowbie areas? Are there enough short areas for the quick, casual adventure?

Certainly can use a few more lvl 8-14 Dungeons. We have some 4-5 person, need a lot of healing kits and buff potions to get through, already in the world. I'd like to see some more 2-3 person places that you can get through using only the basic armor and weapons available on the world. Make it more new-player friendly. Keep in mind that +1 weapons are the best some of us have, if that . Places that level up the challenge at the same time as your character are even better.

2) Proximity to the hot spots. Does it feel like you have to travel a looooong way to reach a dungeon? Do you feel like there are unrealistically dangerous concentrations of enemies far too close to 'civilized' areas? If so, what areas?

Other than the plethora of monsters trying to kill the town that live just down the well? Nothing worth going to is that far away in my opinion. Arkaz has a really nice spread of dungeons all focused and located in different parts of the world.

3) Loot. Do you feel loot is unbalanced in some areas compared to others? Do you feel like the dangers of some areas far override any reward you might receive for going through? Do you avoid some areas due to the lack or excessive surplus of loot?

Thanks to my being spoiled by the Hala loot drops *blames Zombie*, I will say it would be nice to have a bit more consistency in the spoils left behind. Seems like on Arkaz it's pure random chance if some treasure is left behind by the last group of enemies you just dispatched. Feels like some groups drop nothing, others drop more than their share. Very few meet the in-between, perhaps this is just my experience though. Guess I'm asking if it's possible to spread out the spoils a bit more? Sorry, but I will also admit how much fun it is with collecting all the useless junk as well as the treasures dropped by monsters. Though I can see this quickly becoming a tiresome chore to have to dispose of 20 bars of soap.

4) Unfair abilities and tactics. Anything out there grinding your gears? Do you dread facing that NPC that throws around knockdown? Do you hate that Abjurationist that dispells every spell you, your father and grandfather have ever cast? Do you dread npcs with damage reduction via items and spells? Do you dislike the npcs with +1,2,3 weapons?

Have had a recent change of opinion on this one, also thanks to time spent on Hala. The NPCs don't want to die just as much as our PCs don't want to die. So of course they are going to throw around the same tactics we do. Knockdown the wizard, stun the archer, instant kill the fighter, and strike from the shadows . Spamming an ability does get tedious when it prevents you from taking any action, however that is kind of the point. When my characters encounter foes like that it's a clear sign my build is not meant to be fighting that enemy by normal tactics. And definitely not alone so time to call in the cavalry, or retreat all together.

Damage reduction is another point that needs a good balance. Have a 20/+3 DR creature near the bottom of a long dungeon? Sure. Same thing just running around a casual area? Puts those characters without the weapons or magics to deal with them in a bit of a bind. Have only seen a handful of places like that but does put a quick damper when trying to explore so wanted to throw that out there.

5) Layout. Do you avoid or prefer specific dungeons due to their layout? Length, spread, environment? Do you keep away from the ones that don't have portals at the end for a quick jump out?

Portals are great, but need to make sense. Portals that drop you back inside the same dungeon but close to the exit make more sense to me than the ones that return you back to the middle of town. I feel the Central Hub dungeons are a really great touch. Being able to pick and choose how a party tackles a dungeon makes it different every time. Also see the perks for DMs during quick events when they want the party to meet their nemesis at the final room without having to go through fourteen tiers first.

[Zerub]

Here are some of my likes/dislikes on dungeons. Of course I don't want every dungeon the same, there needs to be different types. I like a lot of dungeons that can be travelled in around an hour. Then I like to see a few that take a few hours or more. If it is a long one, then there needs to be some sort of middle ground that you can rest or portal out and back into so you don't have to spend 5 hours on the same dungeon, all at the same time.

Here is what I like in a long dungeon that is made for a party.

1. Dungeon: I think it needs to level up as the party does. Different sections (NightFang on Avlis is probably the best example that I can think of for this. Ravensclaw is good too.). Have a way to each section for players, so that they do not have to travel the entire dungeon to make it back. For example lets say there are five sections. Section 1 is levels 1-5, section 2 is levels 6-10, section 3 is levels 11-20, section 4 is levels 21-30 and section 5 is level 31 and up. To get to level 5, I don't want to have to go through all the other sections. Of course, the breaks need to make sense.

2. Exits: I always like portals or some other way (rope, ladder, etc) that lead back out of a long dungeon, so you don't have to backtrack. If you do then at least make the re-spawn to a time limit that they are not all spawning on you during the way out. Sometimes it is IC to have a few spawn on the way out. Nothing is more fustrating to spend over an hour in a dungeon, just to have them spawn back on you as you leave and you just want to get back out.

3. Spawn: Have multiple types of opponents. Not just a fighter type dungeon. Let it have fighters, healers and casters (or monsters of that type and group them together some). Make sure that a PC has to protect himself from different things. Make them have mind saves, as well as the NPCs having damage shields, some non-critable and also have the fighter types along with them. One good thing would be to have areas once in a bit that have casters that dispel or sometimes an anti magic area.

4. Drops: Gold drops are always my favorites, but I like to see some variety also. Things that are usable for sure. I don't like to see too many drops though as far as items go. I would rather see gold and a few good item drops. If there are tons of drops, then someone spends half the time picking up things and then runs out of room to hold them. A one time reward per player is always nice for a dungeon that takes a long time also, or even one time per section. Maybe the easier sections would not have as good of a reward. Just don't have them drop a lot of senseless items that you are trying to sell because no one will ever use them.

5. Quests: I always like to see a reason for a dungeon of this type (smaller dungeons like a cave where certain things live or there are mineables or some other collectible don't need this).

6. Traps/Misc: I like to see traps and locks off an on. I don't care about seeing them on every lock, but some things need to be locked. Make some of them really difficult also to make use of a good rogue. I would not make it to where the lock leads to a mandatory part of the dungeon, but to somewhere the party may get a better or different reward.

7. Riddles: Riddles are always nice also. Not killer ones all the time, but something that has to be figured out always throws a bit of suspense into a dungeon.

8. NPCs: NPCs that interact throughout a dungeon are a must to make it seem real. I love to see NPCs that have a conversation with you before a battle. I am not talking about every battle, but for boss battles and such and maybe a few others. Always nice to have some bosses that have a high fort save. Keeps them from being dev critted right off.

9. Turn Offs:
A.Dungeons that are just repetition. Going through level after level of mindless bashing. A short dungeon is one thing, but something with 10 levels is another.
B. Dungeons that you keep having to back track through a lot. For example, you find a locked door at point A and then after reaching point F, you find a key and have to go all the way back to point A. A screen or so is not bad or even if you travel a few screens once, but if it becomes a routine in a dungeon then....

Well that is my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Scott

[luminance]

Something I just thought of!

I totally understand the desire to cut down on the number of needed areas by having one trans go to a different place of the same area, but I HAAATE those as a character who relies heavily on summons. The summons won't go with me through transes like this and sometimes I've died or have had to retreat because of this. I usually have to cast spells on the summons or "train" them in some way (Gate is a great example, I can't even cast it when there is battle happening), so if I have to wait until after the trans to summon, I usually will get attacked before I have time to tell skeletons to not run off or caster-summons not to drop Evard's all over the place.

It's horribly annoying (especially when it's a boss) and IMO, should be avoided as much as possible.