A subject that hits close to home

[SteveMaurer]

I just found this new post Lycanthropy and You, and must say that this hits a little close to home. The reason that I found Arkaz at all was that I left Avlis over this. My main there, Diabolina, was hit by this particular game mechanic, and I as a player did not have much fun with it, especially in combination with the "don't log off to avoid an adverse effect" rule they have. I had to remain logged on when I really needed not to be, and this started other problems I'm still dealing with today.

Later I asked a number of pointed but fair questions to the Avlis team about the game world foundation of this mechanic, which were never answered (in fact, my asking inspired an act of petulance by a few of the leaders there which made me permanently lose respect for them). However, as Arkaz seems to be adopting this mechanic in whole cloth, I think it is fair to refer these questions to you as well (which I've modified a bit to fit the world).

1. What is the world justification by which an involuntary physical curse changes people's behavior to pure Chaotic Evil?
2. If this is a divine mechanism, why don't all Gods use this same easy mechanism for involuntary conversion to their alignment? (Especially other evil gods.)
3. Given the exponential growth at which this curse is transmitted, why haven't all cities been turned Lycan in the course of a night?
4. Why in the world would such an insanely dangerous curse have a mysterious, secret, FOIG cure? Why isn't the means of avoiding or curing it prominently displayed just about everywhere?
5. Do Gods just stand by as someone cursed with Lycantropy kills all their (NPCs) Priests in their temple? If not, what do they do to stop it?
6. If the answer is they allow their priests to be killed, how does this interact with the "no attacking a temple w/o a GM present" rule? Why can a PC Lycan get away with something a PC under full control could not?
7. If cities are prepared to use to stave off full-Lycan-conversion, why are PCs not cured or killed?
8. Why does the code have guards just stand around while you slaughter all the merchants while under the curse?
9. If you die and go to Thessella, can she uncurse you? Will she? If not, do you change into a Lycan and "hunt for prey" while in spirit form? Does this count against your full conversion timer?
10. By these mechanics, is it intended that it be impossible in the gameworld for a Pure Lycan not to be Chaotic Evil? Or, if a Lycan CAN be non-CE, why the initial alignment change at all?
11. Such a drastic alignment change is always noticeable (via Detect Evil if nothing else), so are you saying that in this world it is basically impossible for any PC or NPC to be unaware that they are a ware-creature?
12. If they are aware of the curse, how much of actually being a Lycan do they remember?
13. In terms of the mechanical change to the PCs alignment, do you expect players to Roleplay being pure Chaotic Evil, even though that isn't their PC's personality?
14. What sanction do you intend to impose if they don't?
15. What are your rules associated with players who might log off when their PC gets this curse?
16. If you intend no sanction, what does this "Chaotic Evil" shift really represent in the game world?
17. When under the effects of a Lycan Curse (and you are unable to control your character), is your character considered a PC or an NPC?
18. Do you intend to explain your decisions about this to anyone who is hit by this curse? Or is figuring this all out just left up to the player, subject to being sanctioned if you don't like their RP?

I understand that the Arkaz team has not yet really used this code, but I would suggest that at the very least you discuss as a team the full in-game justification for these mechanics, and how much information you intend to tell the players before you inflict this on people.

For me, I make no bones that I am not a fan of Avlis Lycanthropy. It sure looks cool, but isn't much fun, especially for new players (older players know all about the cures). Also, the coder implemented it in such a way that if it were real, it would be effectively uncurable (if something infects 100 people in the time it takes to cure just 1 - there is no a cure), and there didn't seem to be any actual in-game justification for the incredibly unbalanced mechanism. The 1 Lycan infecting 2 (in less than a minute), who infect 4, who infects 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4906, 8192, 16384, 32768, 65536, 131072, 262144, 524288, 1048576, 2097152, 4194304... (in less than an hour) problem is "solved" simply by GMs being unaware of mathematics, and refusing to recognize the implications.

Whatever you decide to do, I just beg that you to try to make it all make sense.

[terror2001]

What is the world justification by which an involuntary physical curse changes people's behavior to pure Chaotic Evil?

Involuntary changes do not change your alignment.

If this is a divine mechanism, why don't all Gods use this same easy mechanism for involuntary conversion to their alignment? (Especially other evil gods.)

n/a

Given the exponential growth at which this curse is transmitted, why haven't all cities been turned Lycan in the course of a night?

Stage 1 of the curse is easily removable. The code is not 100% like Avlis'.

Why in the world would such an insanely dangerous curse have a mysterious, secret, FOIG cure? Why isn't the means of avoiding or curing it prominently displayed just about everywhere?

It's not secret or mysterious. It's IG information. Try asking around.

Do Gods just stand by as someone cursed with Lycantropy kills all their (NPCs) Priests in their temple? If not, what do they do to stop it?

Mostly

If the answer is they allow their priests to be killed, how does this interact with the "no attacking a temple w/o a GM present" rule? Why can a PC Lycan get away with something a PC under full control could not?

PC's with control of the changes must follow the rule of not attacking towns and temples, etc. because they have the ability of choice.

If cities are prepared to use to stave off full-Lycan-conversion, why are PCs not cured or killed?

Pc's can be cured. Removal mechanisms for Stage 1 were explained in the thread you linked.

Why does the code have guards just stand around while you slaughter all the merchants while under the curse?

That is a faction issue because likely the guards are not in the same faction as the merchants.

If you die and go to Thessella, can she uncurse you? Will she? If not, do you change into a Lycan and "hunt for prey" while in spirit form? Does this count against your full conversion timer?

Each change counts. It is limited as to how often the change can occur. The system is not 100% like Avlis'.

By these mechanics, is it intended that it be impossible in the gameworld for a Pure Lycan not to be Chaotic Evil? Or, if a Lycan CAN be non-CE, why the initial alignment change at all?

True Lycans must be Evil.

Such a drastic alignment change is always noticeable (via Detect Evil if nothing else), so are you saying that in this world it is basically impossible for any PC or NPC to be unaware that they are a ware-creature?

By the time you have reached the point of becoming a True Lycan the PC should have more than a clue.

If they are aware of the curse, how much of actually being a Lycan do they remember?

Let us get back to you on this one. Marking this red so I remember, hopefully.

In terms of the mechanical change to the PCs alignment, do you expect players to Roleplay being pure Chaotic Evil, even though that isn't their PC's personality?

Choosing to become a True Lycan when it goes against the PC's personality is something you have to work out.

What sanction do you intend to impose if they don't?

This would likely be a case by case basis, dependant upon how it is abused.

What are your rules associated with players who might log off when their PC gets this curse?

What is the point in logging off? When you change the ticker has already ticked. The involuntary changes don't last very long. Yes there is the potential you might kill another party member. When they return from the dead you'll have some explaining to do.

If you intend no sanction, what does this "Chaotic Evil" shift really represent in the game world?

It represents the PC's willingness to remain cursed.

When under the effects of a Lycan Curse (and you are unable to control your character), is your character considered a PC or an NPC?

Still a PC, just like when you get confused, except more hairy.

Do you intend to explain your decisions about this to anyone who is hit by this curse? Or is figuring this all out just left up to the player, subject to being sanctioned if you don't like their RP?

Questions are welcome. Some things can be explained and some things need to remain IG information.
No one is forced to become a True Lycan. PC's choosing to become one and not playing it will find themselves in a pickle sooner or later.

[Dyers]

*removed by self*

[Brayon]

Folks this is Ask the Team. Please take discussions to GD.

[Adament]

I'm sorry that part of the game has left such a lasting and negative feeling about the game and game worlds. I do have some experience with lycanthropy from a long time ago. Couple of years ago when Dima was a much lower level, below level 10, he contracted the curse. I had not had much experience with it before and did not know anything about the game mechanics but did have basic ic and ooc knowledge of what it was about. I decided to handle it in an IC post and seek help in an ic way. I made the following post:

Anyone entering the ROTE outpost at Zvid would be greated by a grisly scene. Piwi and several of the merchants can be found dead and mangled, blood and gore spread across the room. Claw marks lead to a rear corner where a large man or sometimes beast can be found covered in blood. If in the form of a man his face is vacant and seem to be in shock. If in beast form he can be seen stalking about clawing and scratching as if searching for prey. A good tracker would also notice a trail of bloody footprints coming from Dwarfhome, the prints alternate between human and animal.

OOC: Got cursed. I am not sure when because it has been several days since I fought lycans. My char knows about lycans and understands it is a curse. Changed while traveling through dwarfhome and killed a dwarf there. When he came out he knew something was terribly wrong. He knows that cures exist for it and went to ROTE seeking a potion but changed while in store having no control over himself. Logged off and waiting for someone to help me rp him either getting cured or whatever else happens, he did kill several people.

Very sorry to ROTE people about Piwi, I know it is pain to have p-merchants killed and I did not intended for it to happen.

Any suggestions about rp'ing this would be appreciated too, just send me a pm.

Char name is Dima and GS is Adament Greymantle in case someone is looking for me.

If my memory serves me, this was 2 1/2 years ago, a group of people responded to my post. We arranged to meet ic and they escorted me a temple where a priest in the group was able to remove the curse. Dima was also given a potion of remove lycanthropy which is common on avlis as well. Whichever worked the curse was removed. After this Dima started on a short career as a were hunter. He made the following post to learn more ic'ly about it.

A fairly large and rough looking man is seen searching the stacks at both the Avlis Tower Universiy and the Great Library of Mikona. He speaks with several scholars asking questions about horrible creatures that change into cats, wolves, or rats. He has always heard this called “were” creatures in his youth or Lycans. He asked about the cause, cure, and elimination of such creatures.

While traveling around town he places several notices around town.

Wanted: Teacher with knowledge of werecreatures. I ain't interested in being one mind you just killing the whole damn lot of them. Contact me at the Adventures Guild Hall and ask for Dima.

Thanks!

This all lead to some fun rp for my char. I never felt railroaded into becoming evil or a lycan. The change to a true lycan doesn't really happen that fast. I never needed team intervention to be cured and the process was fairly easy and easy to obtain after I had made the IC post. It did cause my char some IC problems and he does hate lycans to this day. His murderous rampage is one of his most traumatic experiences IC, waking up and finding he had murdered the entired rote staff was not easy on his mind set.

I hope this clears up some misunderstandings about this part of the game. It can be "bad" for your char in an ic sort of way but it does not have to be lasting or lead to a bad ooc experience. It was actually a good part of my char development that was totally unexpected and added an experience to Dima's past that lurks there in the back of his mind. My experience is clearly different than someone else and I am truly sorry that it could impact your fun so adversely but I'm sure that the team here on Arkaz will handle everything as they always do and try to make sure that players have fun in a fair and compassionate way.

Adament

[renard5]

Well, I'm glad somebody asked.

And thanks guys for all your helpful replies.

[SteveMaurer]

Thank you very much for the replies. It has largely put my mind at ease. Now for a few followup questions:

1. Is Adament's method of dealing with this (logging off, appealing for player help in getting a Remove Curse an OOC fashion on the board, arranging a time to log back in) acceptable on Arkaz? I considered this at the time, but thought it would be considered like logging after being knocked to bleeding and then asking for help on the boards to have someone come by and heal your PC up.
2. Who can grant a Remove Curse? One part I didn't mention was the "joy" of finding a potion merchant who sold a cure, but turning into a Lycan and killing him before anyone could actually buy it. Can you have priests at all major temples sell or give a Remove Curse spell (for their own safety, if nothing else).
3. Since the alignment shift represents deliberate intent on Arkaz, do I understand from this that GMs would look favorably on an alignment reversion if you could show that your PC was trying to get cured, even if they were not successful?
4. What does the "Chaos" part of the alignment change represent? Say, for instance, I had a NE Druid of Jager, who decided being a True Lycan was cool. The evil is understandable. But why would this move him from Neutrality to Chaos? Can a True Lycan be anything other than Chaotic?
5. I've had to invent my own roleplay around the involuntary alignment change of my PC, which I think is accepted. But I'd like to be sure that you are saying that the magical basis of Arkaz Lycanthopy is different from Avlis Lycanthropy, and that you consider them different, correct? I'm not sure how to explain the conversion otherwise.

[ForsakenPlague]

Before we get into anymore questions, we need to address a pair of points.

First, Ask the Team and the Arkaz forums as a whole are not the place to make comparisons between CoPaP worlds and Arkaz, nor is it a place to express displeasure on how other CoPaP worlds operate. This is disrespectful, not only to Arkaz and the other world or worlds concerned, but also CoPaP itself.

Second, while Arkaz has rules, there cannot be one for every single situation. Therefore, we have an umbrella policy which I've linked. http://www.arkaz.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6030 If you think something is wrong, don't do it and/or talk with the team about it. In return, the team will treat the situation with a healthy measure of grace.

1. Is Adament's method of dealing with this (logging off, appealing for player help in getting a Remove Curse an OOC fashion on the board, arranging a time to log back in) acceptable on Arkaz? I considered this at the time, but thought it would be considered like logging after being knocked to bleeding and then asking for help on the boards to have someone come by and heal your PC up.

If you need to log off due to lack of time(RL comes first, not Arkaz), do so. If you are frustrated to the point of tears, or have tried for hours and are unable to figure out how to get a cure, it would not be a problem to ask for help on the forums instead of staying in game.

Who can grant a Remove Curse? One part I didn't mention was the "joy" of finding a potion merchant who sold a cure, but turning into a Lycan and killing him before anyone could actually buy it. Can you have priests at all major temples sell or give a Remove Curse spell (for their own safety, if nothing else).

FOIG, though a priest sounds like a fairly good idea.

3. Since the alignment shift represents deliberate intent on Arkaz, do I understand from this that GMs would look favorably on an alignment reversion if you could show that your PC was trying to get cured, even if they were not successful?

If a character's actions are good, it is likely they will receive an alignment shift; the same can be said for evil actions.

4. What does the "Chaos" part of the alignment change represent? Say, for instance, I had a NE Druid of Jager, who decided being a True Lycan was cool. The evil is understandable. But why would this move him from Neutrality to Chaos? Can a True Lycan be anything other than Chaotic?

There is no "Chaos" alignment change.

5. I've had to invent my own roleplay around the involuntary alignment change of my PC, which I think is accepted. But I'd like to be sure that you are saying that the magical basis of Arkaz Lycanthopy is different from Avlis Lycanthropy, and that you consider them different, correct? I'm not sure how to explain the conversion otherwise.

See the first paragraph of this post.

[terror2001]

One point to clarify for everyone, as I mis-spoke earlier about the internals of the system, it does not offer a choice after the FOIG amount of involuntary changes. After the cumulative amount of changes for a Stage 1 Lycanthrope, the PC will become a Stage 2 Lycanthrope with the shift to evil.

The link, Lycanthropy and You, has been updated.

The good news is the involuntary changes are not very frequent, so it gives PC's plenty of time to get cured, if they want to be cured.