Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Any Questions you might have.

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Chastened Phoenix
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Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Chastened Phoenix » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:31 am

Hi,

First, I apologize in advance for any trouble this post may cause. I'm well aware that part of the root cause is limits in terms of available resources, and engine capabilities. Also, I'm not actually sure where to post this so if I've guessed incorrectly, please direct me to the proper board. Or, if there is no proper board, feel free to delete this topic, I suppose. I'm mostly trying to lay some thoughts out here. *Not* trying to cause more problems for anyone! Oh, and I'm aware that I'm "overthinking," things, probably. But, umm... that's just part of being me, I guess? *spreads hands* Also, I acknowledge that much of this "internal conflict," is my responsibility to deal with. Guess in part, I'm asking for help (points of view, nudges to IC info, maybe?) in doing that. :)

Ok, so disclaimer done (I hope adequately) I'm feeling abit... conflicted regarding alignment in this world, or maybe just my own notions of "Good." For the record, I don't think of myself as "Good." My strong suspicion is that I, along with upwards of 90% of RL humanity, would detect as TN ;) Basically, it's a matter of a difference between doing good, and *being* good. The former is necessary, but not sufficient, for the latter. Anyway, that's mostly an aside.

Hmm, not sure how to actually describe what I'm thinking. Also, I don't want to produce a massive wall of text single post, so... think I'll break it up abit.
Ideas I try to hold to:
K Popper Scientific Method
https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Epistemic Responsibility
https://youtu.be/AYkhlXronNk
Tried to find a quote, but nothing was short enough!

I'm not a bad guy, I just ask more questions than many toddlers...

Chastened Phoenix
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Chastened Phoenix » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:05 am

Ok! So, best place to start, I guess, is with the worldview I'm attempting to RP (I suppose it's also somewhat my worldview, but I'm not sure...)

Einar's Beliefs:

*All Sapients are born with the right to exist, the right to freedom from avoidable suffering, and the right to seek self-improvement. However, these rights can be forfeited by their actions.

* The Needs of Sapient Beings can be justifiably given priority over nonsapients' needs. (i.e. he doesn't believe that the needs of a dog are morally equivalent to those of a person.) However, preservation of the environment is ultimately in the interests of all lifeforms, sapients included. (So, wantonly harvesting or hunting for no particular purpose isn't a good idea.)

* No one/no sapient is "purely" good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. (roughly how he might put it.) Or at least, nothing absolutely pure would be likely to persist and function for any significant period of time. ("pure" good would dissipate itself in an effort to help others, evil would self-destruct, law would be incapable of action (immobile and stagnant), chaos would be incapable of maintaining any form for any useful period of time.)

* No being, whatever it's nature, deserves death or harm just for existing. Nor is the mere existence of a being justification to attack it. Utility can be, if it's to save or better lives (for example, killing animals to produce leather or food) but, sapient beings shouldn't be treated thus. They should only be harmed if no other way exists to save lives, or prevent even greater suffering.

* Each sapient being is an individual, and should be thought of as such. (I suppose hive minds would muddy this point, alot. But... so far as I know, Einar hasn't run into any, so...) The upshot is: the "sins" of a race do not immediately translate into blameworthiness for new individuals. No matter how many others of their kind have done wrong in the past. That said, this doesn't mean one should automatically trust, say, a troll, or a goblin, or a devil. But it does mean that the idea of "Oh, all (creature x) are horrible, so killing them like vermin is OK!" holds little water with him.

That said, Einar could be said to be a hypocrite. Though largely, that's because there seems to be little choice other than being one, that I've seen. (which, I'm guessing is at least partly due to limits on resources, and engine capability...) Even so, that doesn't make the above beliefs wrong, does it?

I suppose another factor is I'm trying to ignore the difference between NPCs, and PCs. strictly speaking, the distinction in and of itself shouldn't matter. And, I can't help but extend the same principle to at the least, "monsters," I know to be sapient. Also, and arguably this is entirely my "fault," Einar comes from a world where many of these creature types, or some individuals, at least, are productive members of society. Sure, maybe not ones he agrees with or likes much, but definitely not monsters to be slaughtered just for existing! And, that includes fiends! (note, there's president for this even in CoPaP, in the form of Sigil.)

So... I acknowledge the mindset I'm trying to RP is inconvenient. But... please tell me, is it wrong?
Ideas I try to hold to:
K Popper Scientific Method
https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Epistemic Responsibility
https://youtu.be/AYkhlXronNk
Tried to find a quote, but nothing was short enough!

I'm not a bad guy, I just ask more questions than many toddlers...

Akai
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Akai » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:29 am

IMO, whether it's wrong or not does not matter, it is an interesting POV to RP :) My more philosophically inclined characters would be delighted to discuss it with him, and perhaps events IG will lead Einar to change his mind. I suggest bringing this question IC to the next Defenders meeting :)

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ambrosia
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by ambrosia » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:56 am

...is it wrong...?
nope.

like Akai mentions... your IC char can have any mindset he/she wants. (w/in the framework of CoPaP rules obviously)

Whether the world he/she interacts with agrees/rejects said mindset is up to each world. which is quite fun if you're willing to grow/be influenced by what happens. :twisted:

In my opinion, of course. :wink:

Chastened Phoenix
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Chastened Phoenix » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:11 am

Akai wrote:IMO, whether it's wrong or not does not matter, it is an interesting POV to RP :) My more philosophically inclined characters would be delighted to discuss it with him, and perhaps events IG will lead Einar to change his mind. I suggest bringing this question IC to the next Defenders meeting :)
Einar's never met or heard of the Defenders... Or of Sune, for that matter... I think? :?

Regardless, I'll certainly be bringing this up IC. :D

Suppose another option could be for Einar to end up TN. Like me, he doesn't necessarily think of himself as "Good," anyway. (Don't think he's ever had his alignment detected, and been told the results...)

And, I'm certainly willing to embrace character development/change. Guess more my worry is "am I setting myself up to piss off lots of people OOCly?" Or, "am I setting myself up to have lots of conflict with the team?" Neither of which I particularly want to do... ((Had enough of that a decade ago, thanks! :( ))

Oh, possibly related... Time's coming when Einar's going to have to decide on which deity, if any, to take as a patron... I mean, way I figure, not having a compatible one will impose mechanical penalties by level 12 at the latest for him (clr6/dru6) given his current build trajectory. He just made lvl 8 yesterday (Dru5/clr3) Now, I'm not going to make decisions based entirely on ooc knowledge of mechanics, or IC knowledge for that matter. (well, maybe on ic knowledge) But, can't ignore them, either, right?

My "alternate plans" if I can't find a satisfactory patron are still: "take levels of psion," and "accept being weak." Actually, highly tempted to take a level or two of psion, anyway. Just to try it out, lol.
Ideas I try to hold to:
K Popper Scientific Method
https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Epistemic Responsibility
https://youtu.be/AYkhlXronNk
Tried to find a quote, but nothing was short enough!

I'm not a bad guy, I just ask more questions than many toddlers...

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demonlady
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by demonlady » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:08 am

I'm not aware of engine limitations when not having a compatible deity but I tend to pick one fairly quick on the spot.
If you want to try it and it happens that you do run into troubles we can always delevel you :)

As for the alignment issue, the only part I can not totally agree with is the "No one/no sapient is "purely" good, evil, lawful, or chaotic".

As I see it some creatures are inherently good/evil, either due to being thriving on/connected to positive/negative energy in some way or simply as they are representations of a plane's alignment.
There could be exceptions to this, but that's not the norm and there would be reasons for it.

But of course Einar does not have to agree with that.

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Zandel2
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Zandel2 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:30 pm

For those of you following a god there are 2 major rules you need to remember.

1) if you are not a divine caster you may be within 1 of your god's alignment
--what does that mean?
-----If your god is TN then you can be NG, NE or TN but must be a N
-----If your god is LG then you can be NG or LG but you have to be a G

2) if you are a divine caster you MUST be your gods alignment.
--what does that mean?
-----If your god is TN and you are not then you'd move away from your god and will find yourself nearing a fallen stage.

Players that are fallen will no longer be able to call upon their god for power and will have to work to regain their gods favor!!

See post below in the rules section
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2180

Chastened Phoenix
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Chastened Phoenix » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:18 pm

By engine/resource limitations, I meant "Hey, why can't I try to reach peaceful solutions with every single sapient being I encounter?" type thing. Not referring to deities.

As for the alignment steps and such. Yeah. Though, last I checked, LN was within one step of LG? :?

Oh, and as for purity. inherent =/= pure. I mean purity in the sense it would be meant for a substance. As in, absolutely nothing else in the being. NOTHING. And, I must maintain that without some little alloying, any "pure" example of an alignment would either self-destruct/dissipate, or be unable to do anything of note (either be an immutable crystal or some such, or be so utterly formless as to not exist at all.)

It may be more accurate to say "No being has any business claiming that anything pure has been found for sure, since the process of determining that is in principle impossible (ala the Uncertainty Principle.)"
Ideas I try to hold to:
K Popper Scientific Method
https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Epistemic Responsibility
https://youtu.be/AYkhlXronNk
Tried to find a quote, but nothing was short enough!

I'm not a bad guy, I just ask more questions than many toddlers...

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Zandel2
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Zandel2 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:14 pm

One step is fine for non-divine casters, I thought you were a divine caster. Divine casters have to match the alignment of their deity.

Chastened Phoenix
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Re: Alignment Questions/Struggles (Ramble Warning!)

Post by Chastened Phoenix » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:36 pm

Right. I am. NG druid/cleric. Sorry for the confusion.
Ideas I try to hold to:
K Popper Scientific Method
https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Epistemic Responsibility
https://youtu.be/AYkhlXronNk
Tried to find a quote, but nothing was short enough!

I'm not a bad guy, I just ask more questions than many toddlers...

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