3D: A Player's Perspective

[3DWarrior]

The purpose of this thread is as follows: To find what, precisely, the players of Arkaz look for in a dungeon.

The following is a list of general(and not so general) topics. Please, feel obligated to elaborate to the furthest extent possible on any of these things, or on some other relevant angle. The six are specific things I'm looking for, but add whatever you'd like.

1) Loot. Do you like seeing 12 Vampiric Arrows, or would you rather find a potion? Do you like finding consumables vs. items? When you go to a dungeon, and you open that chest at the very end, what-within reason-are you hoping to find?

2) NPCs. Are you always dreading that encounter with a certain Class-type? Do you despise the various poisons, level drains, and ability decreases, or do you enjoy having that spice in the mix? Are you happy with a spawn of 5-6 NPCs per encounter, or are you wishing there were less? Perhaps more? Do you like having a good mixture of NPCs within an encounter-two fighters, a rogue and a mage, or do you like having a single kind-just fighters, or just mages? Do you groan when one pops a heal potion, or do you say 'Now it's a fight!'?

3) Layout. Do you like linear dungeons, or do you like central areas that can take you in different directions? Do you hate hitting 'R' and getting the 'You Cannot Rest Here' message, or do you say 'Omg, yes! I really want to rest, but this is a challenge!'? Do you like atmosphere within a dungeon(actual ~feel~ to it with fixtures within the areas and specific, detailed lore), or would you rather just have a box with ten NPCs and a door on the other side? Does the atmosphere matter just as much as the XP and loot you're getting? Do you expect only a short duration, or do you enjoy a 1-2 hour trek?

4) Obstacles. Do you like class/character-type obstacles?(This would include a wall that can only be scaled by a nimble character to open a door, or a heavy door that can only be pushed open by a really strong character, or a switch that requires a Use Magic Device check to operate). Do you like opening a door, and finding barriers in your way that you have to run around before you can pummel the NPCs? Do you hate narrow spaces that only have room for 2-3 characters up front, or do you like wider areas for open brawls? Traps and locks, thoughts?

5) Bosses. Do you like lots of mini-bosses, or perhaps just one big one at the very end? Do you like it when the Boss is an extreme, extreme challenge, or would you rather have it just be only a tad more powerful than the minions?

6) Overall outcome. Upon leaving the dungeon, are you happy when you're dragging your beat-corpse back to town, or are you disgusted that you had to use so many consumables to stay standing? Do you expect to leave a much richer PC upon spending an hour inside, or are you amazed when you actually make a profit on a outing? Do you care that you only gained 700 xp for an hour of your time, or do you feel it well-deserved to have gained 2000 xp for all that work?

Note: When answering these things, please also include your character level and class. This will help me judge and implement ideas accordingly.

Note: I would ask that responses be kept general concerning any past experiences with dungeons(especially when saying anything negative). Builders put time and effort into them, and this isn't intended to demean or otherwise put down hard work.

[luminance]

Getting more a builder/player perspective but WHATEVER.

In order of playing preference:

Andy: Wizard 18
Eilshe: Rogue 3/Sorcerer 2
Seth: Rogue 2/Bard 2/Outsider 1

1) Loot. Healing kits are always nice, because I am lazy and hate crafting them. I like wands, but I'm bored to death of magic missile and negative energy wands. The best items are ones with a neat description and some plot behind it, especially books, which I will usually ICly keep. Also, edit to second Ronan saying SCROLLS. Scrolls are the reason Andy has no money ever. It'd be amazing if good scrolls dropped from things.

2) NPCs. Things that heal or cast timestop make me want to stab things. Like with items, I like NPCs that have a story behind them. Like, I enjoy fighting the goblins still, because they have little camps in the cave and stuff. I like seeing NPCs fit in with their environment and tell a story just by being there.

3) Layout. I hate long corridors that loop all over the place, it's kind of amusing the first time, but if it's somewhere I'll have to go a lot, it's just a hassle and makes me not want to do it. Again, plot should drive the design, if the whole dungeon is just boxes with doors, there should be a reason it's unfurnished. IMO, think about who build this place and why they built it like that. I have trouble suspending disbelief in some areas where the layout just makes no logical sense. Oh, and I enjoy being able to snipe at NPCs from across a chasm or pool of water. That's pretty fun.

4) Obstacles. I hate areas that are very cramped, because it makes it difficult for more than one or two people to even help, and makes it way too easy to hit your friends with your spells. More room to maneuver will result in less accidentally hitting your buddy with negative energy ray because they jumped in front of your cursor at the last moment, and then having to deal with that ICly. I really hate that. Other obstacles I don't mind so much, but it'd be nice if there was a way for people who can't scale the wall or pick the lock to still get through, like a longer path or a hidden door or something. Different paths for different classes is okay, but don't restrict to just one class or ability and penalize others for not having it. For instance, the pirate-cannons: a buff warrior with 18 con or whatever could probably just run through and take the hits, but the frail little wizards can put on fire immunity or dimension door across. This is a good obstacle.

5) Bosses. I don't care as long as the boss is plot-appropriate. It's best when you kind of see the fight coming, maybe through things that were found around the dungeon before the fight, or through the (?) server messages or whatever. If I walk into a room and die without expecting it, I'm pissed, but if I walk into a room where I'm expecting to find a huge important NPC to fight, but still get my ass handed to me, THEN it's amazing and fun.

6) Overall outcome. 2000xp would be spectacular. Of course I prefer areas that give either lots of XP or lots of gold, though again, I really care about plot over game mechanics. The best areas, to me, are ones that you can repeat the story basically indefinitely without wondering why such-and-such NPC keeps getting kidnapped there, or how they got a new king so fast, or whatever.

[Ronan]

((Level: 26 Rogue/Wizard/Pale master.))

1) Loot:
As an archer, I always prefer the arrows. As a non-archer, I tend to prefer the potions. As a mage, I like finding scrolls! I would say it's largely dependant on class. I don't like finding 'ale', 'wine', or 'spirits.' Maybe if it were more specific drinks, I'd have a use for them for purposes of entertaining guests.

I love finding the little tokens that cast minor spells and have charges. A little gem with charges of mage armor or something? If it's not a spell I can cast, I'll keep it. If it is, it's a great gift for someone that needs it.

2) NPCs

I have a couple of things I groan at:
NPCs with multiple cure potions. Draws out the battle and while it may be logical for NPCs to carry it, it should be saved for significant fights.
Fights with NPC shadowdancers. I have had to stand there for rounds and rounds of combat because they don't keep unstealed for a full round and I can't keep target on them. They abuse their stealth skill to hide as soon as they attack.
Dispel magic usually sends my characters packing home, but I can respect it. It's literally the only reason I tend to avoid fights with NPC priests and mages. I don't mind being blinded, cursed, or level drained, but I sure can't fight without spells on.

Here are some things I like:
Putting multiple easier fights before a more difficult fight. Like a story, it builds to the end.
Having mostly generic NPCs for the area, and then a few special ones with some personality reflected in their enviroment, clothing, and avatar. A really nice touch is the journal placables in a certain avlissian dungeon.

3) Layout:
How big of a dungeon I want generally depends on the time I have. Little areas are good if I'm just going to take someone there to RP, and big dungeons are great for big groups to play in. I like having rest areas for the multi area dungeons. I also like having quick exits at the bottom of really big dungeons.

I like detailed lore in a dungeon.

Obstacles (traps, placables, puzzles) are quite exciting. One thing I might note is that I would prefer there be multiple paths through an area if the obstacle will block entry from anyone who doesn't happen to be strong enough/quick enough/etc. Maybe one of my characters uses the path with the arcane archers shooting at me from the high walls, and the other character would rather take the path full of poison and slow traps.

5) Bosses
I like mini bosses for big dungeons, with a big boss room at the end. I like it when placables warn me that I'm about to encounter a boss my character may not be able to take on so that he or she can turn back.

6)
Wealth: I like it when my PC does not go broke just trying to adventure. They key here is enough profit to sustain resources. If I spend 10000 gold on my healing items and come out with no new gear and no replacement kits and not enough gold to replace them, it's just not a dungeon my character will go to very often because going broke just trying to adventure is a pain.

XP is not that big of a deal to me. I like going to a place that is challenging enough that I have to think about what I'm doing instead of sleepwalking through it, while not killing me in the first few encounters. I presume I'll get enough xp from a challenging place that I will at least get 200 and probably not get 2000, and anywhere inbetween there is cool with me.

[Tremayne7]

Zachary Jor'dre
Bard 10/Dragon Disciple 8

Callandra Dellenarie
Druid 5

1)Loot: Mix it up. I like getting scrolls, jewelry, gems, gold, arrows, healing kits.

2)NPC's/Encounters: I think it depends on what type of dungeon you are building. If it is a long involved dungeon (like the Spider caves under the well), I like the graduated levels easy the first few levels and then progressively harder. If it a short dungeon (like umber hulks), figure out what "level" dungeons we are lacking (easy, medium, hard). I am like Lumi in that I do not like twisty, turny maze like things. One dungeon I adore on Hala is the Fensir mines. I'd like to see something like that here on Arkaz. I can run Fensir in my sleep, but I love that dungeon.

3)Layout: Opps I think I answered that above.

4)Obstacles: I have to agree with Ronan on the puzzles. Ronan can design some wicked cool puzzles.

5)Bosses: I'd like to see something like one with a lot of mini bosses and then a big boss that drops something cool that can be turned in for a cool item (like the sword of Ellistree for an ioun stone or the bat wing from the Werewolf cave for a cool belt [both dungeons on Hala]).

6) Wealth and xp: I like gold. It would be nice to come home with a couple of thousand gold. As far as xp, depending on the dungeon, you should figure about 1000xp per hour it takes you to complete the dungeon.

Thanks for asking about this. I'm sure this helps not only yourself, but other builders as well.

[VCaparzo]

Casey Den'eve Lvl 20 Monk
Vincent Oselli lvl 3 Druid

Agree with a lot of what has already been said, excellent suggestions. Just wanted to voice a few opinions.
((would like to note I know nothing about how the world is built so some suggestions may be impossible given the resources))

1: Loot - Seems pretty well covered. A solid mix is good, useful consumables always appreciated.

2: NPCs - Keep us guessing. If there is any way to never truly know what's coming up next that would be great. Maintaining that tension of not knowing if the enemies ahead are an easy kill or the bane of your character's class seems to keep myself focused more than running through the motions of practiced combat. Also whenever there just happens to be that MUCH stronger foe among all the others, even though they all appear the same, things of that nature that make combat interesting is what I look for.

3: Layout - Agree on the point of long narrow hallways being a nuisance. But that's primarily a problem with my controlling the monk speed I do rather enjoy the choke points in dungeons though, when only 2-3 characters can get through, but that's coming from a melee point of view.
To reference a favorite example of a good layout I'd say the Sea hag caves off Goblin isle is a great example of proper use of the varying path types, multi-path rooms, quick corners, narrow walkways interrupted by open ground. Again variety is always appreciated.

4. Obstacles - The others already said it here. A roadblock is great to break the pace of the dungeon, but please, please let there be a detour around it for those parties who left the rogue/wizard/whatever at home.

5. Bosses - Bosses should serve more purpose than just a spiked exp amount. I would certainly be more pleased by a boss with a story that goes down in one hit than one who just happens to be there and sends half the party to visit Thessela. Sub bosses worked into that story via item drops or dialog is also something I'll always enjoy.

6. Overall Outcome - While most of my preferences are geared towards an epic style dungeon I would also like to say that I appreciate the simple quickie dungeons just the same. For players like myself who don't always have the time to play as much as they'd like, it is certainly appreciated to have a short dungeon to enter, kill everything in sight and get out. That way I can quickly get a fair amount of Exp (anything above 500ish) and then plop myself down by the fire and enjoy listening to everyone's stories and not feel I'm falling behind if I can't go with them to the bigger dungeon later in the evening/morning.

[3DWarrior]

Excellent responses. These things will directly influence some of the stuff I'm building. However, I'd still like more. Even if someone else posted the ~exact~ same things to my topics, please still say them for yourself. Think of it as a poll. The more people saying "No, don't make the NPCs have tons of healing potions," or "Ew, I don't want to have a dirty, nasty, smelly rogue with me just to get through a dungeon" the more I'll put weight into those decisions.

And, if you're a Dm, still post! You guys often run stuff in dungeons, and many of you still have Pcs on the server. Add your thoughts if you're so inclined.

[Kali]

First off, these are comments based on Hala, as I haven’t run many dungeons on Arkaz. It is just stuff that I like/dislike in general. I usually solo places because there aren't many people around, so my comments are aimed towards solo play.

Loot
Bunches of ammo less than 50 are annoying. It always urks me to find 3 arrows. Also, basic ammo is a waste of time as well. I don’t tend to find many sling stones or hand axes. I would prefer to find gold as opposed to Ale or Wine. Consumables are always welcome. Healing potions and the like I often drink straight away.

NPCs
Disarm is very frustrating. I don't play to run the risk of loosing my weapon. Knockdown, stun etc are a pain if spamed. I hate NPCs that spam time stop. Having more than 1 heal can be painful, unless I’m playing with Morgan. Heals are fine for epic dungeons, but again if all the critters have them it gets frustrating. I don’t like insta death much and avoid places with lots of it. I like a mix of different NPC types in an encounter. Morgan likes fighting groups. Brynja likes small numbers that she can sneak up on.

Layout
I love atmosphere, very important. I have backed out of dungeons because they were getting creepy and I was expecting something nasty to kill me. Linear dungeons are great for short runs, like Fensor Cave on Hala. For larger dungeons (1 ½ hours+) I prefer a central area with branching paths. The elemental dungeon on Hades was good for this, where the middle location was a rest area and each branch had the key for the next one. You could take it in stages over a few nights if you wanted to.

Obstacles
Obstacles that totally block progress are VERY annoying. Same with chests that HAVE to be disarmed and picked. Having obstacles that if passed make things easier is nice. Brynja likes tight corridors so she can force a 1 to 1 with a group. Morgan doesn’t care. I do like it when you can use the layout to your advantage. I don’t mind monsters hiding behind stuff. Traps and locks are fine. Locks that block my way and cant be bashed are a pain. As an example I took Morgan down to the Minotaurs and chopped them all up. At the bottom the chests were locked and trapped and she couldn’t bash them. Don’t intend to bother going back alone as she can’t get the loot. If all the dungeons were like that I would play some place else.I like obstacles designed to wear you down, rather than end your dungeon run.

Bosses
Bit of a mix here. Morgan is a killer so tough bosses are fine. Brynja is a support character so she has to fall back. Anything that requires +5 weapons to get past their 30dr is a pain as you don’t get those sorts of weapons normally and need to cart a wizard along. I like mini bosses as they are more interesting. I think tough bosses are better for groups though. Sadly with most bosses, as long as the meat shields get the wizard to the boss, the wizard takes it out.

Overall Outcome
I like to be richer than I started. If a place needs me to drink more than 1 heal potion with Morgan and the critters only give her 6xp I go some place else, unless the treasure is good. I like to get 1000xp per hour of dungeon slogging. I hate walking al lthe way to the end of a dungeon and then having to walk all the way out. On Hala the Orc Caves and Minotaurs are great, the Dwarven Ruins and Black Tower are hated for the walk back. Usually after a dungeon crawl its time to head back to town for a chat.

[orvarg]

from a players perspective i agree with whats said by the above players ....but
from an npc's perspective heres a few thoughts ..
they would caryy items that you could loot (heal kits arrows if equipt with bow etc).
they would use their skills to thier advantage (mages dispelling, rogues backstabbing, shadow dancers attacking from h.i.p.s.)
the bosses would be the strongest ones to fight (in a dungeon might makes rite , whether it's intelligence or strength)
they would try to slow your progress with traps and build defenses against intrusion( choke points shooting from high places of advantage etc.)
and the boss would have the most amount of loot probably in a trapped locked chest possibly hidden in a secret area just to make it more diffacult to find( who keeps thier loot just lying on the floor?).

remember as npc's this is thier home .. they would defend it to the man .. would'nt you defend your's as well?
just some devils advocacy and my two coppers

hope it helps, orvarg gus's player

[grayking]

I have Characters in every class; my mains are all Psion or Psion/something and levels 6-40 nowadays.

A dungeon should have a purpose and fit into an area that surrounds it first and foremost.

It should have a theme it should be made to the advantage of the occupants. It is, after all, their home/location to defend regardless of the irritations for players.
Harder the dungeon the better the payout xp/gold/quest etc.

A dungeon should play like a story. Writers are keenly aware of the rhythm of the story and how this affects the feel of the story. Beginning of the story, the middle of the story, the midpoint, etc with peaks and valleys in that story finally finishing with a climax and close.

One main question that drives what is "in" the story is: will it be a Mystery? or will it be Action adventure? ...etc. You get my point I'm sure. Story type determines tools used to build it more then anything else, in my opinion.

It is important to note that a good Story grabs your attention right up front. Tell the reader hey you will miss something if you do not come in and experience me.

Lastly I want to see my dungeon detailed and thought out from every angle. In short, a complete package all complimenting each facet in turn. The details should match in the most complimentary way the "personality" the dungeon's story matches.

This approach will get you over the I hate this or I dislike that. My vote is to leave the builder total control to paint like an artist upon the canvas of their imagination.
I see this as a complete holistic approach to building or creative process.

For example, I hate foul mouthed speaking in my storyies as a general rule. But there have been so many wonderful movies that it fits into and made the story. For instance “Get Shorty”… That move would not have stood without the foul language. “Shawn of the Dead” another favorite of mine would have been a disaster without the dialect of British guttural humor. It was a quintessential element that made a good move into a great one. I must say that, despite my usual preference, it was perfect for those story and I would not have it removed under any circumstances.

My point being is that, as a builder, you should never take out any element or trick in your pallet of tools. The old saying "you cannot please everyone" is true. If you try you will end up with mush no one will like. Build what you like. Use the skills of a writer. Bring your vision into the world of Neverwinter. Tell your story from you experiences and your world view. Even if someone doesn’t care for that type of story will say “Wow that was a good story.”” Not my cup of tea , but I can appreciate it.”

Oh and for the record my favorite story's usually the chase someone across the world to catch someone of beat competitors to destination. The excitement of the race and pulling off the impossible feats to beat the others or catch the Yada yada.

Some examples off the top of my head are:
The Great race (absolute rof pandemonium)
Around the world in 80 days. (Phileas Fogg the early version of Steam Punk)
Journy to the center of the earth (Classic into the Unknown)
Indiana Jones Movies (Very polished natural Rhythms)
The awesome classic North by Northwest (Directed by the master himself Hitchcock)
Gumball Rally (Cheese mhmm)
Smoky and the Bandit (Cheese mhmm)
Mad Max and Mad Max II (Vision and setting)
Blues Brothers and the all time classic Bullitt (nothing but pure Art)
Canonball Run (Cheese mhmm)
French Connection (Doyle was unhooked)
Goldfinger and the The Spy Who Loved Me (classics)

I hope this helps, Gray

[sinner]

The purpose of this thread is as follows: To find what, precisely, the players of Arkaz look for in a dungeon.

The following is a list of general(and not so general) topics. Please, feel obligated to elaborate to the furthest extent possible on any of these things, or on some other relevant angle. The six are specific things I'm looking for, but add whatever you'd like.

1) Loot. Do you like seeing 12 Vampiric Arrows, or would you rather find a potion? Do you like finding consumables vs. items? When you go to a dungeon, and you open that chest at the very end, what-within reason-are you hoping to find? THE BEST LOOT IS SOMETHING YOU WILL ACTUALLY USE, ARROWS ARE GOOD FOR SOME, WHILE POTIONS FOR OTHERS, STILL SOME POTIONS I FIGURE ARE USELESS. EVERYBODY AND THEIR MOTHER CAN BUFF, EVEN MY SORRY ASS, POTIONS SIT AROUDN IN A PACK TILL SOME RANDOM TIME YOU NEED THEM OR ARE SOLD ASAP. ONE USE ITEMS LIKE FIREBALL AND OTHER SILLY DAMAGE STUFF EVERYBODY USES.. JUST TO HAVE FUN.

2) NPCs. Are you always dreading that encounter with a certain Class-type? Do you despise the various poisons, level drains, and ability decreases, or do you enjoy having that spice in the mix? Are you happy with a spawn of 5-6 NPCs per encounter, or are you wishing there were less? Perhaps more? Do you like having a good mixture of NPCs within an encounter-two fighters, a rogue and a mage, or do you like having a single kind-just fighters, or just mages? Do you groan when one pops a heal potion, or do you say 'Now it's a fight!'? MIX IT UP.. 6 MAGES ALL GROUPED TOGETHER ARE CAKE THOUGH.. SPREAD OUT THE SPAWNS A MAGE HERE, A FIGHTER THERE, CLERIC IN THE BACK, 3 ROGUES IN THE CORNER THAT ATTACK YOUR REAR ONCE YOU ARE ENGAGED.

3) Layout. Do you like linear dungeons, or do you like central areas that can take you in different directions? Do you hate hitting 'R' and getting the 'You Cannot Rest Here' message, or do you say 'Omg, yes! I really want to rest, but this is a challenge!'? Do you like atmosphere within a dungeon(actual ~feel~ to it with fixtures within the areas and specific, detailed lore), or would you rather just have a box with ten NPCs and a door on the other side? Does the atmosphere matter just as much as the XP and loot you're getting? Do you expect only a short duration, or do you enjoy a 1-2 hour trek? WHEN YOU SAID DO YOU HATE HITTING 'R' I THOUGHT OF NETHACK AND RUSTMONSTERS! STILL RESTING.. SHEESH I AM NOT SURE HOW IT BECAME SO EASY TO REST ANYWHERE ON ANY WORLD MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY, BUT GIVE ME A BREAK!

4) Obstacles. Do you like class/character-type obstacles?(This would include a wall that can only be scaled by a nimble character to open a door, or a heavy door that can only be pushed open by a really strong character, or a switch that requires a Use Magic Device check to operate). Do you like opening a door, and finding barriers in your way that you have to run around before you can pummel the NPCs? Do you hate narrow spaces that only have room for 2-3 characters up front, or do you like wider areas for open brawls? Traps and locks, thoughts? OBSTACLES ARE SWEET, MAKING THE PARTY SPLIT UP A TIME FOR SOMEBODY TO CLIMB OVER AND OPEN A DOOR WOULD BE NEW AND FUN. OBSTACLES THAT ALLOW THE BADDIES TO CAST AND ARROW YOUR ASS BEFORE YOU GET TO THEM CAN SUCK, BUT ARE NEEDED.

5) Bosses. Do you like lots of mini-bosses, or perhaps just one big one at the very end? Do you like it when the Boss is an extreme, extreme challenge, or would you rather have it just be only a tad more powerful than the minions? DEPENDS ON THE BOSS.. IF THE MINIONS ARE KOBOLDS AND THE BOSS IS A DRAGON OF COURSE I WOULD LOVE TO SEE EVERYBODY SHIT THEIR PANTS WALKING INTO THE ROOM UNBUFFED, HEHE. BUT THATS JUST ME, BOSSES SHOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT IMO. HELL THEY ARE THE REASON YOU ARE THERE IN MOST CASES

6) Overall outcome. Upon leaving the dungeon, are you happy when you're dragging your beat-corpse back to town, or are you disgusted that you had to use so many consumables to stay standing? Do you expect to leave a much richer PC upon spending an hour inside, or are you amazed when you actually make a profit on a outing? Do you care that you only gained 700 xp for an hour of your time, or do you feel it well-deserved to have gained 2000 xp for all that work? USING 20 HEAL POTIONS FOR 200 XP DOES SUCK, BUT I DONT MIND USING 20 HEAL POTIONS TO GET 1000XP, COST OF GOLD MUST = GAIN IN XP. OR NOBODY WILL EVER VISIT YOUR DUNGEON.

Note: When answering these things, please also include your character level and class. This will help me judge and implement ideas accordingly. BARD, FIGHTER, ROGUE, JACK OF ALL TRADES, ROMANCER, RACIEST, UNDEAD HUNTER, SONG WRITER, BRANDY DRINKER- level 34

Note: I would ask that responses be kept general concerning any past experiences with dungeons(especially when saying anything negative). Builders put time and effort into them, and this isn't intended to demean or otherwise put down hard work.