Corwin

[thetamlyone]

Agreed to all of the above, Akai! Though I could add quite a few other DMs who are excellent at including everyone if I weren't afraid I'd leave someone out!

As for Lexy, I confess that I usually assume he is a very busy elf and don't bother him.... Next time I am doing something fun, I will so shoot you a tell!

[ambrosia]

Redda... as you feel personally excluded and have now publicly said so, I will publicly apologize for ever making you feel excluded in anyway. You are my friend and I'm sorry that you ever felt bad playing here.

From my perspective, I would agree with Soulkey on this one and say that for as many times as you have logged out when an event is starting up and for when you've said no thank you or that you were doing something else, I have always thought that was your choice and not something I did or didn't do. Please remember I have -asked- you to join over the months. I hope that counts for something in your book.

I will admit I stopped inviting you along to events because you told me at least three times that you don't particularly like DM events or events with a lot of people. As I very rarely saw you outside of those times (probably because of time zones) you haven't gotten to see me a whole lot when I'm on just doing something "smaller" with less people.

As Soulkey said, if you've changed your mind, please tell us.. we can't fix something we don't know about. Now that I am aware, I'll also start asking you again too. I consider you a friend and I love your characters.

The couple of times you and Manny actually stuck around to participate in our plot we were thrilled to have you! From our perspective, we'd like that trend to continue!

There are many times I am on just to cookie people and interact with NPC's a little bit and not run through an actual plot. Also, Terry's post is spot on. Often here lately I've only been on 'by appointment."

See Terry's posts. He's listed the only exceptions I DM under.

On that note - "by appointment" means ANY one. If you don't ask IC to meet with an NPC, or send me an OOC PM to ask me if your character can do something - there is No way for me to know what you want to do.

Same with joining an event late. Or if you just seem me running around and don't know if an event is in progress. I try very hard to send tells to people as I see them log in. If they say "yes" to an invite, I work in a way to include them. If they say no, I leave them alone. You don't have to wait for me to say something to you, though...

....You would be surprised how little I hear over the DM channel "hey! good to see you! can I join in on whatever is going on?"

The bottom line is communication of expectations is a two-way street. I've had miscommunications with people here and I'm thrilled to say that everyone has come to me to say "hey, you - blockhead! what the heck did you mean?" and we've worked it out. Dare I say even become better friends through our differences. 8)


I'm not a god. I only play one in NWN. 8)

[Rudiki]

Zombie wrote: "Even if it is a tell saying sorry but a bunch of characters are busy doing secret stuff or way down a dungeon, that’s fine." Exactly; well said.

Zombie also said: "I tend not to send tells to players or on the DM channel asking for inclusion though. While I don’t mind it myself I just don’t feel comfortable doing it to others, especially DMs." I feel this way as well.

Akai wrote: "I do very much approve of Arkaz' policy of trying to include everyone in anything." I agree with this completely, and I have been VERY impressed with how well several of the DMs here succeed in this. Thanks yet again for that.

And Akai is so right about Gaklah!

[Samhaim]

Honestly folks, I can boil this whole thing down right to this.

On Arkaz, we have a very open player base and a very open and nice team. We don't play favorites, and if it looks like we are it's likely just situational (PrC plot for example, or maybe a guild event). If you have a concern, don't hesitate to bring it up with Terry, Soulkey, or even the entire DM group (PM: Dungeon_Masters).

Redda, I'm sorry that you've felt excluded but if my memory serves correctly, you avoided every plot i've ever run on Hala so I don't make an active effort to contact you. I'd LOVE to have you in my events, so please join us the next time you can.

Threads like this make me not want to dm. Remember that we are giving up our playtime to bring you these events. We don't get paid. Let's put this one to rest.

[Redda]

Hello all, well, yes, I did not make this a private post and I am surprised and pleased at the posts in response here.

First off, thank you soulkey, samheim and ambrosia, yes, you have always been VERY good about including Redda in any events and my post was not a dig for that. You all know that I am not a great one for group activities and my absence lately is mostly just because I don't care to play without Manny (Jeff, my husband who is currently serving in Iraq) as Mark and Melissa know.

If I opened up a can of worms it was because I chose to make this post and I said what somebody else
felt too timid to say. In this instance it's okay to shoot the messenger, I have a thicker hide (and potions of Granite!)

I do feel that this has cleared the air somewhat. Having read all the various responses I will apologize for making a blanket statement but I am very glad to see that we are able to discuss a touchy subject like this without it turning into a spiteful "he said. she said" debacle!

I thank you all for 'not' attacking my post, and for the good conversation that has ensued.

Maybe I should get off my lazy butt and bring Redda in sometime!

Again, thank you all......

[Kali]

You bring Redda, I'll bring Grovel. he has been working hard on the farm and could use an island holiday!

[Redda]

*laughs* did ya ever get enough coin to buy the chicken farm?

Ask Redda for a mortgage....throw in the yard work again and we have a deal!

[luminance]

I have had to rewrite this a million times, because I am getting angry. This is so clear cut to me, and yet this exact same thing tore my last (forum) game apart.

I will try to make this my last post, because I need to stop posting before I flip out over this.

When a player--let's say, Bob--refuses to ever make the first move, Bob is therefore also forcing everyone else to always do so for him.

-Has Bob considered that the other players might ALSO be as shy as he is? They do share a similar hobby, do they not?
-Has Bob considered how worthless it makes other players feel when Bob refuse to approach them ever unless they first sent him a tell begging him to please come grace them with his presence?
-Has Bob considered they might be in combat and not even notice that Bob signed on, since their chats were scrolling by so fast?
-Has Bob considered that they are not psychic and have zero idea what Bob is doing, and maybe if Bob is the one who is bored, then Bob should be the one taking the initiative?

What Bob is asking is extremely selfish. If everyone was making the same demands as Bob, then nobody would ever manage to meet up, because everybody would be sitting around alone waiting for someone else to come to them first.

I am not a DM, but I know very well that they miss things while running events. I believe it was posted just recently that /dm is like a big attention grabbing neon light. If YOU want something, then YOU must be the one to ask for it, not just wait for it to be handed to you on a silver platter and then complain when it isn't.

that person did not feel that they could do so without causing even more antagonism towards their character.

The bottom line is communication of expectations is a two-way street.

That's all.

[Rudiki]

Every time I think I won't have to post anything else, someone posts something I have to respond to. The whole "Bob" thing is irrelevant. I don't know how I can say this so people don't keep on completely hearing something else entirely, but I'll try again:

When I talk about the fact that I have sometimes not been invited to participate in DM-run events on Arkaz, I am not talking about PrCs or guild events, or the like. I am talking about open events, and I mean that the DM running the event has not invited me, either ICly or OOCly, for no reason I could see or think of. I think DMs should invite all the players they know are on the server to open events they run. I think it is their responsibility to do this. From what I have been reading here, it seems as if the DMs here agree with this and strive to do this. I'm glad that's the case.

I am not going to speculate about why this has been happening. From what I know of the people involved in this game I would tend to rule out deliberate malice and guess that it was some sort of misunderstanding. I brought it up because I felt that the people involved in this game would not ignore it, or make excuses for it, or tell me it didn't happen, but instead would think about what they were doing that might have resulted in this, and take steps to correct and improve it. That's really all there is to it.

Also, throughout the discussion I have tried to be polite and civil, and I have taken pains to point out how much I do like Arkaz. I am not condemning the game, the DMs, or the players, and I have not engaged in sarcasm or personal attacks. I think if you re-read what I have written you will see that.

I DO NOT expect players to send me tells asking or inviting me to come play with them, and I AM NOT offended if they don't do this. This was never something I was objecting to in this thread (or anywhere else). I am surprised and mystified and dismayed at the hostility directed toward me, and I think it is misplaced and inappropriate. Specifically:

"When a player--let's say, Bob--refuses to ever make the first move, Bob is therefore also forcing everyone else to always do so for him."

I have made a pretty serious and sustained effort to get involved in things on Arkaz.

"-Has Bob considered that the other players might ALSO be as shy as he is? They do share a similar hobby, do they not?"

I don't expect other players to invite me to things, though it's nice when they do. I expect DMs to, whether they are shy or not.

"-Has Bob considered how worthless it makes other players feel when Bob refuse to approach them ever unless they first sent him a tell begging him to please come grace them with his presence?"

I have never done this. I approach other players all the time without being invited to in tells first. I don't expect other players to send me tells inviting me to come join them.

"-Has Bob considered they might be in combat and not even notice that Bob signed on, since their chats were scrolling by so fast?"

I do not expect other players to notice that I have signed on and send me tells, and I am certainly not offended when they don't.

"-Has Bob considered that they are not psychic and have zero idea what Bob is doing, and maybe if Bob is the one who is bored, then Bob should be the one taking the initiative?"

I have never said I was bored (it's really tough to bore me). I have never said or implied I expected other players to know what I was doing, or to know my state of mind, either.

In short, although these accusations are directed at me, NONE of them apply to me at all. I don't even know where some of them are coming from. I have not complained about other players not sending me tells. I am not offended if other players don't send me tells. I DO want DMs to invite me, and all other players, to open events. That's all.

So yes, what Bob is asking may be selfish, but what I am asking is reasonable.

"I am not a DM, but I know very well that they miss things while running events."

Leaving aside the fact that I have not been talking about joining events already in progress, but rather about events that have not started yet, this is another good reason for the DM to contact the player instead of vice-versa, since the player's tell to a busy DM is much more likely to be missed than a DM's tell to a non-busy player.

I was glad that for the most part this thread was taking the high ground and people weren't engaging in personal attacks and angry insults. I had thought that it had wound down, and I was hopeful that some useful things had been said. I apologize for having to post again; I don't enjoy arguing, and I don't want to re-start this thread.

Thanks for listening.

[Tremayne7]

Last thing and I think we've cleared the air on this one.

Admins! Please lock the thread.

Thanks!